Author Topic: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards  (Read 359 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tom Ace

  • Star
  • Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 7854
  • This is my personal text.
Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« on: June 29, 2015, 10:50:29 AM »
A new bill in Tennessee seeks to "protect" churches and clergy from performing same-sex marriages.

http://news.yahoo.com/tennessee-drafting-pastor-protection-act-supreme-court-ruling-174159086.html



There's more stupidity in the article, but that's the gist of it.  Way to waste time on a completely unnecessary bill with no practical use whatsoever.  I thought the people who would go for this nonsense were against government waste.

Offline PackJason

  • AFR
  • Star
  • *
  • Posts: 9523
  • I work at Fox News
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2015, 10:51:52 AM »
Fine, pass this stupid thing ... And then let the churches start paying taxes. 

Offline BuccinGator

  • Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 6428
  • Average Joe With an Opinion
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2015, 10:55:33 AM »
While it's obviously a huge waste of time, I think we're all naïve if we don't believe these lawsuits aren't coming.  Nor that'd they'd be just as big a waste of time.
~Imagine Whirled Peas~

When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Offline Raylan Michael Molnar

  • Coach
  • ********
  • Posts: 17497
  • "You gonna 'pull' on me?"
  • Pickems Record: 81 and counting.
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2015, 11:02:08 AM »
So, as I understand Tom's premise, one can be sued (successfully, so far.  Was not the award $140,000?) into oblivion for refusing to bake a cake with a vagina or a penis on it for a couple's same sex marriage but y'all think the same people are not going to sue a pastor, rabbi, imam or priest for not marrying them, as forbidden by their scripture?





Who is naive, again?

Nice outfit, Baby.


  ana2  sd3

Offline Tom Ace

  • Star
  • Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 7854
  • This is my personal text.
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2015, 11:07:12 AM »
So, as I understand Tom's premise, one can be sued (successfully, so far.  Was not the award $140,000?) into oblivion for refusing to bake a cake with a vagina or a penis on it for a couple's same sex marriage but y'all think the same people are not going to sue a pastor, rabbi, imam or priest for not marrying them, as forbidden by their scripture?

Who is naive, again?

The guy who thinks someone was sued for refusing "to bake a cake with a vagina or a penis on it for a couple's same sex marriage". 

Baking cakes for weddings and officiating at weddings are two very different things.  The baker doesn't have to bake a cake that specifically goes against their beliefs (like putting a vagina on it or that says "Homosexuality is awesome!"), but they do have to provide the same cake they would for anyone else.  Just like a priest doesn't have to officiate a same-sex wedding.

Offline Scuzz

  • King of Off-Topic...Master of His Own Domain
  • Coach
  • ********
  • Posts: 17486
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2015, 11:14:46 AM »
As I understand it a church is not required by federal law to perform marriages for different race couples, which were "legalized" in the south 50 years ago. So if there were no challenges to that why would you expect challenges to the same sex laws.
Being right is the least of my concerns.

Offline Misterfamous

  • Superstar
  • Coach
  • ********
  • Posts: 21020
  • PIV is always rape, ok?!
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2015, 11:21:59 AM »
So, as I understand Tom's premise, one can be sued (successfully, so far.  Was not the award $140,000?) into oblivion for refusing to bake a cake with a vagina or a penis on it for a couple's same sex marriage but y'all think the same people are not going to sue a pastor, rabbi, imam or priest for not marrying them, as forbidden by their scripture?
When you can demonstrate that baking cakes, pies, breads and pastries is an exclusively religious endeavor, then your argument might have some merit.  As before, no pastor, priest, imam or rabbi was under any obligation to perform a marriage for anyone, let alone gays.

Quote
Who is naive, again?
Poor, poor Christians.
wsh2 wsh3 gb1

Offline Misterfamous

  • Superstar
  • Coach
  • ********
  • Posts: 21020
  • PIV is always rape, ok?!
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2015, 11:23:47 AM »
As I understand it a church is not required by federal law to perform marriages for different race couples, which were "legalized" in the south 50 years ago. So if there were no challenges to that why would you expect challenges to the same sex laws.
Exactly.  And those interracial couples can grumble about it all they want, but since they can easily (and more cheaply) just sign their marriages into full legal status by signing a paper at the courthouse, no one is being excluded or discriminated against.
wsh2 wsh3 gb1

Offline Raylan Michael Molnar

  • Coach
  • ********
  • Posts: 17497
  • "You gonna 'pull' on me?"
  • Pickems Record: 81 and counting.
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2015, 11:27:47 AM »
The guy who thinks someone was sued for refusing "to bake a cake with a vagina or a penis on it for a couple's same sex marriage". 

Baking cakes for weddings and officiating at weddings are two very different things.  The baker doesn't have to bake a cake that specifically goes against their beliefs (like putting a vagina on it or that says "Homosexuality is awesome!"), but they do have to provide the same cake they would for anyone else.  Just like a priest doesn't have to officiate a same-sex wedding.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/06/03/baker-forced-to-make-gay-wedding-cakes-undergo-sensitivity-training-after.html

A family owned bakery has been ordered to make wedding cakes for gay couples and guarantee that its staff be given comprehensive training on Colorado’s anti-discrimination laws after the state’s Civil Rights Commission determined the Christian baker violated the law by refusing to bake a wedding cake for a same-sex couple.

Jack Phillips, the owner of Masterpiece Cakeshop, in Lakewood, Colorado was directed to change his store policies immediately and force his staff to attend the training sessions. For the next two years, Phillips will also be required to submit quarterly reports to the commission to confirm that he has not turned away customers based on their sexual orientation.

Nicolle Martin, an attorney with Alliance Defending Freedom, called the ruling Orwellian and said they are considering an appeal.

“They are turning people of faith into religious refugees,” Martin told me. “Is this the society that we want to live in – where people of faith are driven out of business?”

Martin said it was “truly frightening” that Phillips will be forced to submit quarterly reports to the government disclosing whether he turned away any wedding cake business.
“There will be some reporting requirements so that Jack can demonstrate that he doesn’t exercise his belief system anymore – that he has divested himself of his beliefs,” she said.
He will also be required to create new policies and procedures for his staff.

“We consider this reporting to be aimed at rehabilitating Jack so that he has the right thoughts,” Martin said. “That’s offensive to everything America stands for.”

Phillips, who is celebrating his 40th year in business this week, told me he’s not going to create any new policies.

“My old ones are pretty adequate as far as I’m concerned,” he said. “I don’t plan on giving up my faith and changing because of that.”

The controversy started in 2012 when a gay couple asked Phillips to make their wedding cake. Phillips politely declined, saying he could not make a cake promoting a same-sex ceremony because of his faith. He offered to make them any other baked item they wanted.

Charlie Craig and David Mullins filed a complaint with the Colorado Civil Rights Commission alleging they were discriminated against because of their sexual orientation. For the record, same-sex marriage is against the law in Colorado.

The commission affirmed a civil court’s ruling that the bakery cannot discriminate against persons in a public place based on sexual orientation.

“You can have your beliefs, but you can’t hurt other people at the same time,” Commission Chairwoman Katina Banks told The Denver Channel.

ACLU attorney Amanda Goad, who heads up the organization’s LBGT group, heralded the ruling.

“Religious freedom is undoubtedly an important American value, but so is the right to be treated equally under the law free from discrimination,” she said in a statement.

Nice outfit, Baby.


  ana2  sd3

Offline Raylan Michael Molnar

  • Coach
  • ********
  • Posts: 17497
  • "You gonna 'pull' on me?"
  • Pickems Record: 81 and counting.
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2015, 11:28:07 AM »
Please help me understand this, Tom.


They didn't want a "cake off the rack", as it were...it was to be customized.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 11:29:39 AM by Raylan Michael Molnar »

Nice outfit, Baby.


  ana2  sd3

Offline Scuzz

  • King of Off-Topic...Master of His Own Domain
  • Coach
  • ********
  • Posts: 17486
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2015, 11:33:26 AM »
You can refuse to make someone a cake for political reasons, but not for sex/race reasons. Sure that is a fine line, but a cake maker can refuse to make a cake for the KKK or ISIS but not for a gay couple or a black birthday party.
Being right is the least of my concerns.

Offline Misterfamous

  • Superstar
  • Coach
  • ********
  • Posts: 21020
  • PIV is always rape, ok?!
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2015, 11:35:55 AM »
You can refuse to make someone a cake for political reasons, but not for sex/race reasons. Sure that is a fine line, but a cake maker can refuse to make a cake for the KKK or ISIS but not for a gay couple or a black birthday party.
Who knew that cake-making was such a stronghold of bigotry ?  I guess this partially explains NFL-Solomon...
wsh2 wsh3 gb1

Offline wild-turkey

  • Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 8684
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2015, 11:37:29 AM »
I don't disagree the bill is nonsense and shouldn't be something a state legislature spends its time on but at some point a gay couple is going to ask to be married in a particular church that won't allow same sex marriages and then they will sue for discrimination.  It will be an agenda based lawsuit to prove a political point but I have little doubt some church somewhere is going to have to defend itself against such a claim.

Offline Tom Ace

  • Star
  • Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 7854
  • This is my personal text.
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2015, 11:38:07 AM »
Please help me understand this, Tom.


They didn't want a "cake off the rack", as it were...it was to be customized.

Where did you see that?  It didn't say that in the article you posted or anywhere else I've ever seen.

Offline Tom Ace

  • Star
  • Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 7854
  • This is my personal text.
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2015, 11:39:34 AM »
I don't disagree the bill is nonsense and shouldn't be something a state legislature spends its time on but at some point a gay couple is going to ask to be married in a particular church that won't allow same sex marriages and then they will sue for discrimination.  It will be an agenda based lawsuit to prove a political point but I have little doubt some church somewhere is going to have to defend itself against such a claim.

From the article:

Quote
The nonpartisan Pew Research Center notes that "virtually everyone agrees that the First Amendment ... protects clergy from being required to officiate at marriages for same-sex couples and churches from being forced to allow gay and lesbian couples to marry in their sanctuaries." Even the anti-gay Family Research Council notes that "churches and ministers have solid protection ... [T]here is no appreciable risk that clergy would be compelled by a court to host or perform a same-sex ceremony."


Offline Misterfamous

  • Superstar
  • Coach
  • ********
  • Posts: 21020
  • PIV is always rape, ok?!
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2015, 11:41:53 AM »
I don't disagree the bill is nonsense and shouldn't be something a state legislature spends its time on but at some point a gay couple is going to ask to be married in a particular church that won't allow same sex marriages and then they will sue for discrimination.  It will be an agenda based lawsuit to prove a political point but I have little doubt some church somewhere is going to have to defend itself against such a claim.
It would be laughed out of court immediately, as a frivolous lawsuit.  You can't force a church to marry a heterosexual couple today, why would a gay couple be any different ?
wsh2 wsh3 gb1

Offline wild-turkey

  • Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 8684
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2015, 11:47:49 AM »
It would be laughed out of court immediately, as a frivolous lawsuit.  You can't force a church to marry a heterosexual couple today, why would a gay couple be any different ?
As I said it will be an agenda based lawsuit but some church is going to have to hire an attorney to go into court and get it dismissed because at some point it will be filed.  I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't happen in the next 6 months actually.

Offline Scuzz

  • King of Off-Topic...Master of His Own Domain
  • Coach
  • ********
  • Posts: 17486
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2015, 11:49:25 AM »
It would be laughed out of court immediately, as a frivolous lawsuit.  You can't force a church to marry a heterosexual couple today, why would a gay couple be any different ?

exactly.......

Except.....I wonder if you were a member of a church, in good standing, and approached your priest/pastor/cleric about marrying your same sex partner in the church and he said no.

I see that being different from some gay couple traveling the country trying to find churches that reject them. Although legally it may make no difference. IMNAL.
Being right is the least of my concerns.

Offline kburjr

  • THE SCYTHE
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 0
  • See y'all later, TS65 and tg
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2015, 11:51:44 AM »
As I said it will be an agenda based lawsuit but some church is going to have to hire an attorney to go into court and get it dismissed because at some point it will be filed.  I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't happen in the next 6 months actually.

Actually, I would expect the ACLU to volunteer to represent the church in this case.
“Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.”
― Robert A. Heinlein

LIVE FREE OR DIE

 

As a general rule of thumb, it’s a bad idea to try to rob the home of people who decorate with animal skulls."

Offline PackJason

  • AFR
  • Star
  • *
  • Posts: 9523
  • I work at Fox News
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2015, 11:52:23 AM »
As I said it will be an agenda based lawsuit but some church is going to have to hire an attorney to go into court and get it dismissed because at some point it will be filed.  I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't happen in the next 6 months actually.

Meh, the church can afford it. 

Offline UTKipp1

  • Non-atheist
  • Coach
  • ********
  • Posts: 15367
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2015, 11:53:27 AM »
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/06/03/baker-forced-to-make-gay-wedding-cakes-undergo-sensitivity-training-after.html

A family owned bakery has been ordered to make wedding cakes for gay couples and guarantee that its staff be given comprehensive training on Colorado’s anti-discrimination laws after the state’s Civil Rights Commission determined the Christian baker violated the law by refusing to bake a wedding cake for a same-sex couple.

Jack Phillips, the owner of Masterpiece Cakeshop, in Lakewood, Colorado was directed to change his store policies immediately and force his staff to attend the training sessions. For the next two years, Phillips will also be required to submit quarterly reports to the commission to confirm that he has not turned away customers based on their sexual orientation.

Nicolle Martin, an attorney with Alliance Defending Freedom, called the ruling Orwellian and said they are considering an appeal.

“They are turning people of faith into religious refugees,” Martin told me. “Is this the society that we want to live in – where people of faith are driven out of business?”

Martin said it was “truly frightening” that Phillips will be forced to submit quarterly reports to the government disclosing whether he turned away any wedding cake business.
“There will be some reporting requirements so that Jack can demonstrate that he doesn’t exercise his belief system anymore – that he has divested himself of his beliefs,” she said.
He will also be required to create new policies and procedures for his staff.

“We consider this reporting to be aimed at rehabilitating Jack so that he has the right thoughts,” Martin said. “That’s offensive to everything America stands for.”

Phillips, who is celebrating his 40th year in business this week, told me he’s not going to create any new policies.

“My old ones are pretty adequate as far as I’m concerned,” he said. “I don’t plan on giving up my faith and changing because of that.”

The controversy started in 2012 when a gay couple asked Phillips to make their wedding cake. Phillips politely declined, saying he could not make a cake promoting a same-sex ceremony because of his faith. He offered to make them any other baked item they wanted.

Charlie Craig and David Mullins filed a complaint with the Colorado Civil Rights Commission alleging they were discriminated against because of their sexual orientation. For the record, same-sex marriage is against the law in Colorado.

The commission affirmed a civil court’s ruling that the bakery cannot discriminate against persons in a public place based on sexual orientation.

“You can have your beliefs, but you can’t hurt other people at the same time,” Commission Chairwoman Katina Banks told The Denver Channel.

ACLU attorney Amanda Goad, who heads up the organization’s LBGT group, heralded the ruling.

“Religious freedom is undoubtedly an important American value, but so is the right to be treated equally under the law free from discrimination,” she said in a statement.
I see no mention of a penis or vagina on the cake.
Our Batman,
Who art in Batcave,
Bruce Wayne be thy name.
Thy Wayne Manor come, thy justice be done,
In Arkham as it is in Blackgate.
And give us this day our daily Nightwing,
And beat down the Joker,
As Robin beats down Two Face,
Who trespasses against us.
And lead us not into Crime Alley,
But deliver us from Joe Chill.
Amen.

dal1 atl3 chi4 tennessee1

Offline BuccinGator

  • Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 6428
  • Average Joe With an Opinion
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2015, 11:54:29 AM »
I think we're all confusing should a lawsuit happen with will it happen.  There will be some dumbass trying to make a quick buck, along with his/her douchebag lawyer that will waste the courts time having ZERO chance of winning in the first place.  And then there'll be the social media outcry against said church for being backwards.
~Imagine Whirled Peas~

When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Offline Scuzz

  • King of Off-Topic...Master of His Own Domain
  • Coach
  • ********
  • Posts: 17486
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2015, 11:55:55 AM »
I think we're all confusing should a lawsuit happen with will it happen.  There will be some dumbass trying to make a quick buck, along with his/her douchebag lawyer that will waste the courts time having ZERO chance of winning in the first place.  And then there'll be the social media outcry against said church for being backwards.

"outcry against said church for being backwards".......

Oxymoron
Being right is the least of my concerns.

Offline Misterfamous

  • Superstar
  • Coach
  • ********
  • Posts: 21020
  • PIV is always rape, ok?!
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2015, 11:57:10 AM »
As I said it will be an agenda based lawsuit but some church is going to have to hire an attorney to go into court and get it dismissed because at some point it will be filed.  I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't happen in the next 6 months actually.
Maybe your definition of "frivolous lawsuit" isn't the same as mine.  Costs to the defendant would be minimal, likely remunerated, and possibly leave the plaintiff open for fines and/or counter-claims.


exactly.......

Except.....I wonder if you were a member of a church, in good standing, and approached your priest/pastor/cleric about marrying your same sex partner in the church and he said no.

I see that being different from some gay couple traveling the country trying to find churches that reject them. Although legally it may make no difference. IMNAL.
It happens all the time already. 

Churchie: "Hey Father, great sermon yesterday.  I just wanted to ask if you could marry my girlfriend and I in the church.  We were thinking of next summer--"

Priest: "Sorry Blaine, I know you've been coming here for the last 24 years since you were old enough to walk, but the church can't marry you to that girlfriend of yours since she's not devout.  Church policy and all."

Churchie: "Awww, but Soo-yin is a good person.  Maybe she grew up on Buddha and everything, but I'm sure you can look the other way on this one ?"

Priest: "My hands are tied.  The bishop has been very clear on this.  She'll first have to be baptized, then take Sunday School class to make up for lack of catechism, give confession... should take a minimum of 2-3 years."

Churchie: "F*** it, I'm going to the courthouse."
wsh2 wsh3 gb1

Offline UTKipp1

  • Non-atheist
  • Coach
  • ********
  • Posts: 15367
Re: Tennessee Makes Strong Showing for Stupidity Awards
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2015, 11:57:17 AM »
Please help me understand this, Tom.


They didn't want a "cake off the rack", as it were...it was to be customized.
And? The baker can't refuse based on their sexual orientation. Now, if the couple had wanted a penis or something similar, the guy could refuse that as long as he hasn't ever done something like that for someone else.

People can believe whatever they want. People can worship how they want, as long as someone isn't hurt. But owning a bakery is not a form of worship so he is not protected by the 1st Ammendment in that case.
Our Batman,
Who art in Batcave,
Bruce Wayne be thy name.
Thy Wayne Manor come, thy justice be done,
In Arkham as it is in Blackgate.
And give us this day our daily Nightwing,
And beat down the Joker,
As Robin beats down Two Face,
Who trespasses against us.
And lead us not into Crime Alley,
But deliver us from Joe Chill.
Amen.

dal1 atl3 chi4 tennessee1